Snape's secret out?

[jarvan49]

Hi all,

Wow I haven't been on this website for a while. I have a lot of catching up to do. Ok now to the reason why i'm back.

I'm re-reading the books and a few things have puzzled me.

The first thing that has me puzzled is snape's secret (Him being a spy for dumbledore/the order).

Ok, so in S/PS snape doesn't trust quirrell and vice versa. We all know that LV was part of quirrell. Since LV was there the whole time, Would LV remember that one of his former followers (snape) has joined up with dumbledore? I mean, it appears that quirrell knows that snape's loyality is with dumbledore so wouldn't LV also remember that? And in the end of GoFand throughout OotP, doesn't snape do a "job" for dumbledore?

ok, i may be babbling on a bit but this has been puzzling me.
any thoughts?

[Athena Appleton]

oy... this has been soooooooo discussed... in fact, I think there might be a thread with the exact same name to it in here somewhere...

In P/SS, Voldemort was basically a nothing. That, along with the fact that Snape believed that Quirrell (and not Voldemort) wanted the stone, is enough to keep Voldemort from realizing that Snape is no longer on his side, I think.

I doubt that any of the Death Eaters, faithful or not, would lift a pinky to help someone do something bad if that person really had no power. Voldemort must know this about his own guys, and though he doesn't like it, he has to know that a lot of them lied to keep themselves out of prison and wouldn't risk getting into trouble to help someone who isn't even Voldemort.

I don't know if that came out right...

Let's say Malfoy told all kinds of lies to stay out of prison, then thirteen years later stumbles across Voldemort but doesn't realize it at the time. It would be silly for Voldemort to assume that Malfoy isn't a true Voldemort follower just because he doesn't follow a guy who isn't Voldemort. Don't know if that's helping.

I don't think anything that happened in P/SS is enough to incriminate Snape, because he didn't know at the time that Voldemort was involved in the least.

[jarvan49]

ok. i guess i'm reading to much into it.

[Athena Appleton]

Nah, it's a legitimate question.

I could be totally off base, though... but I don't think Voldemort knows Snape's a spy, just because I think he would have disposed of him already if he has known all along... I mean, Voldemort is trying to work in secret, so to knowingly have a spy in your midst for that long would just be ridiculous.

[Eol]

I don't think Voldy would dispose of Snape immediately if he found out that he was a spy. He could use him to feed misinformation to Dumbledore and the Order, as an unwitting double agent. Dumbledore himself said that Voldy was quite probably the most brilliant student that ever went to Hogwarts and so his cunning could quite easily match that of Dumbledore's. What I mean is he could easily gain information from Snape that Snape didn't even know he was giving. In fact Snape may not even be able to hide his thoughts from Voldy, but is being led to believe that he can.

[Deedra Malfoy]

Plus, LV was weak. he was attached to Q, for goodness sakes. he may not have been able to do anything, even if he had wanted to.

And now we have all these threads about Snape? jeez.

[Athena Appleton]

I don't think Voldy would dispose of Snape immediately if he found out that he was a spy. He could use him to feed misinformation to Dumbledore and the Order, as an unwitting double agent. Dumbledore himself said that Voldy was quite probably the most brilliant student that ever went to Hogwarts and so his cunning could quite easily match that of Dumbledore's. What I mean is he could easily gain information from Snape that Snape didn't even know he was giving. In fact Snape may not even be able to hide his thoughts from Voldy, but is being led to believe that he can.

I would agree with you if he (Voldemort) didn't seem to be getting so ticked off every time his efforts are thwarted by the Order. He really doesn't seem to be in the loop, and it seems that everywhere he turns, he is up against some problem that the Order is causing. I definately believe that Snape's time as a spy is coming to an end, that Voldemort will realize for sure that it is Snape who has turned on him, but I don't think that's happened yet.

[Evil Wizard Petting Zoo]

Yeah, I don't think Snape will be a spy for too much longer. But I'd hate for Voldemort to murder him (hey, everyone loves Snape!). Dumbledore could have an idea that Voldemort is starting to catch on to Snape and warn him. And if Snape does die, I have a feeling Harry will be there and Snape and Harry will have some mushy-gushy reconciliation. Eurgh!

[Athena Appleton]

Yeah, I don't think Snape will be a spy for too much longer. But I'd hate for Voldemort to murder him (hey, everyone loves Snape!). Dumbledore could have an idea that Voldemort is starting to catch on to Snape and warn him. And if Snape does die, I have a feeling Harry will be there and Snape and Harry will have some mushy-gushy reconciliation. Eurgh!

Well... hmmm...

I don't think Snape will be a spy for much longer, I don't think Voldemort will kill him, I do think Dumbledore will have an idea that Voldemort is about to catch on and warn him... But I don't see any mushy "Harry, I am your father" thing coming about (think Star Wars... I know, Snape isn't Harry's father, but I was talking about the good guy and the bad guy have this heartfelt thing happen right before bad guy dies...)

I think book seven will end with Snape having done something to prove himself and he'll get the post for DADA teacher, to start the school year after Harry leaves Hogwarts. Just my opinion though, and I don't want this to turn into another thread speculating about who will become DADA teacher... There's too many of those! So forget I said that.

Don't think Snape will die. There. That's all.

[Deedra Malfoy]

i don't know, Athena. We've been having discussions on Harry's parentage. i feel he may be illigitament, but i really don't see that happening.

*Gasp!*

[Athena Appleton]

Ummm...

I assume you're talking about the comment about how Snape couldn't be Harry's dad...

Rowling says quite clearly, I can't remember if it was in the World Book Day chat or on her website, that James is definately Harry's father.

[Mistress Siana]

1) We cannot be sure whether Snape still works as a spy, all we have is the knowledge that Snapes likes Harry to think he does.
2) Isn't the dark mark supposed to burn in Voldemort's presence? Harry's scar did.
3) If Snape's scar burnt, did Dumbledore know?
4) Why was Snape staring at the ceiling when he told DD about Voldemort's return? Remember you need eye contact for legilimency (book 4, pensieve scene)
5) Who's the "one who's left me forever", as LV puts it, if not Snape?
6) Why doesn't LV want his DEs to know the names of the traitors?
7) If you were Voldemort, would you kill a traitor that has DD's full trust or rather try to take advantage of that fact?
8) What is DD's trust worth when he hired Quirrel and the fake Moody?
9) During the final task of the triwizard tournament-where is Snape?
10) DD knew that LV could see through Harry's eyes-then why did he run the risk of letting Snape teach him occlumency? LV could very well have entered his mind as well.


Btw, I still believe that Harry is in fact Snape's father. Timetravelling is beautiful!

[Athena Appleton]

1) We cannot be sure whether Snape still works as a spy, all we have is the knowledge that Snapes likes Harry to think he does.

True 'nuff.

2) Isn't the dark mark supposed to burn in Voldemort's presence? Harry's scar did.

I don't know. If you look at the fact that Hermione used the same spell to do the little Galleon trick in OotP, they only got hot when she meant for them to. It's just as likely that the only time the dark marks only burn when Voldemort purposely makes them burn... however, this is somewhat confusing, seeing as Karkaroff talks about how the dark mark has been growing darker all year... perhaps the mark becomes more apparent, but doesn't burn...

3) If Snape's scar burnt, did Dumbledore know?

I think so. I think Sirius and Dumbledore both felt that at the time, Harry was in danger because of what all was happening with the tournament, and Dumbledore had the added knowledge of knowing that Snape's dark mark was growing more apparent, and eventually burnt... I just don't think he knew why until Crouch/Moody dropped the ball and did something that made him look very suspicious.

4) Why was Snape staring at the ceiling when he told DD about Voldemort's return? Remember you need eye contact for legilimency (book 4, pensieve scene)

I don't know... I'll have to reread what you're talking about... where is it again? All I remembered was Harry telling Dumbledore about Voldemort's return, not Snape...

5) Who's the "one who's left me forever", as LV puts it, if not Snape?

Sinistra

6) Why doesn't LV want his DEs to know the names of the traitors?

Again, my feeble old brain isn't able to remember... where's that at? I don't think Voldemort wants his Death Eaters to know the names of all the other Death Eaters, regardless of who's a traitor and who's not... Also, Voldemort works in secrecy, so having the knowledge all to himself of who's a traitor, or who's a Death Eater, could help him. After all, if he shared that information with everyone, the traitor could very easily find out that Voldemort suspects something, which would mess up his plans.

7) If you were Voldemort, would you kill a traitor that has DD's full trust or rather try to take advantage of that fact?

I would use it as much as I could, but there is a limit. The fact that EVERYTHING goes not-his-way in OotP has me thinking that he wouldn't put up with it anymore, and he'd just kill the traitor, if he knew who it was for sure.

8) What is DD's trust worth when he hired Quirrel and the fake Moody?

I think it's still worth a lot... Dumbledore's human, but he's a very clever one... however, since very very few of us thought to be suspicious of Quirrell in P/SS, or Moody in GoF, I don't think it's really right to say "well, he can't be that grand, he hired two folks who were right in with Voldemort." The plotlines surrounding those two characters were REALLY odd...

9) During the final task of the triwizard tournament-where is Snape?

I personally think he's with the other teachers and students. When Harry disappeared and the dark mark burned, I think he told Dumbledore immediately. If you look at it from Voldemort's point of view, I think that it's understandable, even though he might not like it, that Snape would not appear immediately, since that would put him in trouble with Dumbledore instantly. I think later that night, Snape went to Voldemort and explained (aka. lied), saying that to keep Dumbledore and everyone else from becoming suspicious, he didn't show up immediately, and maybe played up his position as a teacher at Hogwarts, so that Voldemort would be okay with him still being there, in a perfect position for being a spy... supposedly for Voldemort, really for Dumbledore.

10) DD knew that LV could see through Harry's eyes-then why did he run the risk of letting Snape teach him occlumency? LV could very well have entered his mind as well.

I think Dumbledore was counting on Snape's skill at Occlumency at that time... Snape had the skill to put less incriminating thoughts at the forefront of his mind, so that even if Voldemort did manage to break through the barrier, the thoughts that centered around Order business, his feelings about being a Death Eater, etc. were safely tucked away. Also, Dumbledore was only working off a suspicion that Voldemort was seeing through Harry... while that may not seem to be that big a deal, it was safer for the good of all for Voldemort to realize something was going on with Snape than for Voldemort to kill Dumbledore.

Btw, I still believe that Harry is in fact Snape's father. Timetravelling is beautiful!

Ummm... ew. Not goin there.

[Alice I]

8) What is DD's trust worth when he hired Quirrel and the fake Moody?

I think it's still worth a lot... Dumbledore's human, but he's a very clever one... however, since very very few of us thought to be suspicious of Quirrell in P/SS, or Moody in GoF, I don't think it's really right to say "well, he can't be that grand, he hired two folks who were right in with Voldemort." The plotlines surrounding those two characters were REALLY odd...

When DD hired Quirrel he was just Quirrel a DADA teacher until he went traveling one summer in the forests of Albania.

When DD hired Moody he was in fact hiring Mad Eye (Alastor) Moody, infamous auror for the Ministry. The night before Moody was to leave for his new teaching appointment he was attacked, captured and subdued for an imposter to take his place.
Once again DD hired a competant person but who actually showed up was a good enough actor or at least preped enough to fool the folks who knew the real moody.

To blame DD for hiring people wrongly is ....

well just wrong.

[Athena Appleton]

Uh-huh... what she said...

*goes back into hibernation*