A death in HBP

[*Lily*]

No way Tanuki. There is being close enough to have an impact and there is being too close. Ron and Hermione are too close. They will be injured. They will be disspirited. but they will not die. They have a future that has yet to play out. yes I know death doesn't care if your story is finished but blah blah blah but Ron and Hermione will not die.

[Just Mom]

Thank you Mistress Siana for the JKR quote on the "redemptive pattern" of Snape. That was quite valuable.

Upon further reflection, I seriously doubt at this point that Dumbledore will "bite the dust" in book 6 either. A wiser, more learned friend pointed out that JKR uses him too often as "her voice" in the stories to dispense of him just yet. Killing DD too soon will be like killing herself.

[Hagger 9003]

i just been thinkin about cheerful stuff like death, and i hav just realised somthin. DD might not die.

LV will hav to be vanquished by love, the thing he doesn't understand. ur right, DD cant die in book 7. this would lead to this revenge thing on voldemort, and that isn't going to vanquish voldemort. however, if he dies in book 6, how will his plan be given to harry? will they all realise in the end? as far as i can guess, only DD knows his plan, so only DD can tell all at the end, so either DD will tell all as he dies, or will on his death bed.

also, if DD dies, there is no successor to him, for headmaster or for the OotP. mcgonagal is not a good leader. shes powerful, but shes not good at hiding her feelings, and can sometimes overreact. shes a follower, and she needs DD to guide her. the OotP needs a mastermind to guide it, and no one can fill DDs shoes right now. (but if voldemort is dead, OotP is not needed, so that doesn't matter)

Ron and Hermione are too close, so i reckon that the only person who could die woud be someone like cedric, who we are aware of, but isn't that important. but this time, more than one person will die. voldemort is back, people. he isnt just going to kill one person in 1 year. he's a psycho for goodness sake!!!!!! he'll be on a killing spree, inciting fear again. remember Trelawneys first prophecy "greater and more terrible than before". muggles are going to notice, so quite a few of them will go. lots of wizards will disappear. people at school will be affected. however, the major characters will start dropping in the last book, so that, when all seems lost, harry can triumph. the time for the deaths of important people will come, but it will come in book 7. and DD wont die!!!!! (pleas dont lynch me !!!!)

[carsten]

Just some scattered thoughts:

• What if die-hard followers of the Pure-Blood-Doctrine are affected through sacrifices in the war? Will Draco finally sort out his priorities? Or die? He cannot stay the way his is at the end of book 5. It would be like an open wound in the story.
• What if close friends are among the victims of war? One of my candidates (and not a favourite one) is Percy Weasley. He might lose someone or become a target himself. Will he acknowledge his own ignorance? Will he learn soon enough before crisis hits?
• Those who will choose LV: Will they be able to use the unforgivable curses against (former) friends or even family?
• If you forget about the Pure-Blood-Doctrine for a moment: What has LV to offer? Power? Other's fear? Why should people follow him? What can he offer? And then: Is it worth it? His tempting vision is somewhat unclear to me. And how will he distribute it? Ads ?

I can't wait to see book 6!

[Mistress Siana]

...if he dies in book 6, how will his plan be given to harry? will they all realise in the end? as far as i can guess, only DD knows his plan, so only DD can tell all at the end, so either DD will tell all as he dies, or will on his death bed.

also, if DD dies, there is no successor to him, for headmaster or for the OotP. mcgonagal is not a good leader. shes powerful, but shes not good at hiding her feelings, and can sometimes overreact. shes a follower, and she needs DD to guide her. the OotP needs a mastermind to guide it, and no one can fill DDs shoes right now. (but if voldemort is dead, OotP is not needed, so that doesn't matter)

I agree with all of those points. And I say it again: This is exactly why he HAS to die. See it from the literary point of view. Mastermind DD having a plan, training Harry how to carry it out, everyone planning it carefully, and in the end Voldemort gets what he deserves would be the easiest way to get the books to an end, and thus also the least entertaining. And Joanne K. Rowling is not richer than the queen because she's a second class author that goes with the easiest way. The hero of the story will have to come to a point where winning seems impossible (many losses in the final battle won't be sufficiant), and I don't see a way for this to happen unless Dumbledore dies. BECAUSE he's the mastermind. BECAUSE his shoes cannot be filled. BECAUSE Voldemort fears him. BECAUSE the world is so much safer with him around. My guess is the end of book 6, as a cliffhanger so to say.

[Hagger 9003]

Ok, siana, ur right in some ways. but if DD dies, how can he die at the end of the 6th book? how will she build a climax in the seventh? if DD dies, surely he will die in the climax, or just before it? but if that happened, how would harry overcome his sadness/anger and use love to vanquish LV? there's a possibility of that happening, but i cant see DD dying at the end of book 6. if he did, he would have to explain his plan beforehand. and if he did that, then i couldn't see the point of book 7. half the reason i read the books is to see how LV will be vanquished, and for the final climax, so if we know how it will happen, what's the point? and if he doesn't explain, either no 1 will kno his plan, or everyone will, after it has finished go "ohhh, that was it." sorry, but i cant see either of these.

ok, now ive talked myself into a corner. DD must die for climax. also, DD canot die. i'm wrong somewhere, or i haven't seen an eventuality.

anyway, carsten, i like ur ideas. yes, i think draco needs to change in a big way. that could be part of the interhouse unity the sorting hat mentions in OotP. also, i like the idea of percy. now i hav changed my mind slightly, and i think that he might die. as much as Fred and george and Ron act, they will still all be upset, and molly will be distraught. that could be something that drives home the horror of LV. And LV really only has to offer power, a bit like the nazis in Germany. in WWII, nazis were racist, and many people thought that they were going to win the war. many countries sided with them. i kno it has been done many times, but theres the parallel. people want power. following LV gets you that power. also, its like being in a secret society. the mystery, the glamour, the feeling that you kno something no one else does.

so DD must die,but cant, and a load of off-topic ramblings. yay, what a wonderful post!!!!

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

OK people, this I am fairely sure of:
Someone must die in order the save Harry, just like Lily did when he was a baby. Then when the death curse is inflicted on him, it will rebound again onto Voldemort, and weaken him yet again.
Before he can flee Harry and others will combine their strength and cast the mightiest Adava Kedavra ever seen upon him.
And if that doesn't do it... stuff him it's not worth it...
The someone who will die to give Harry the protection will more than likely, yes, be Dumbledore

[Just Mom]

In the OotP it is implied I believe, that love is the thing LV underestimates and only Harry can kill/destroy LV but I think it's unlikely it will be with a curse. I can't see a huge build-up to who will be the most powerful wizard because it's "power" that has corrupted LV to where he is now. There must be something greater than "power" to get rid of him. This isn't a contest of superheros. It's not the Green Goblin getting out-witted by Spiderman in a clever jump. There are deeper themes in these stories than that. To use another fantasy classic example, Aslan did not with brute strength and a show of magical power, kill the White Witch. He sacrificed his own life at her hands, and "a deeper magic" was invoked because of his sacrifice that she was unaware of. Not that JKR is copying CS Lewis, but the Narnia story is a classic and that theme is not unheard of other places.

Pretty much everyone agrees that DD will die. I don't think he'll die in the HPB which is the specific question here. It's too soon and it's too obvious. Even from a "literary perspective."

[Hagger 9003]

thank u rev mom!!! someone agrees!!

yes, i do think that harry cant use power. that's not to stop them trying though. maybe that will be the (apparent) downfall of the OotP, and the (apparent) death of hope, b4 harry uses love, and maybe the mysterious room in the DoM, to vanquish him.

i concede defeat, siana. DD will die, in book 7. i dont want it to happen, and im not entirely sure, but i can think of no other scenario right now.

onto the subject again, i rekon that, lik i said before, lots of ppl will die, but not many major ones. this will be how the muggles begin to notice signs of something happening, which jk said would happen. im going to be more flexible, and say one major character may die. i dont think many more will. not until book 7, anyway. but, as the two are almost 1 book, in two parts, there will be more of a cliffhanger. maybe this may mean a major character in jeopardy? i dunno. hopefully it means there will be less of a time gap between the two books

[Just Mom]

what time is it in Amsterdam? It's 9AM here in my part of the US.

[Hagger 9003]

right now its 3:20pm. +1hr to GMT. usually im on at 8-9, gmt, so no one is ever on at the same time as me.

[Mistress Siana]

Well, it's 3.50 pm + 1h to GMT, and I'm here...where are YOU?

Btw, I didn't want to appear as though I wanted DD to die, neither did I want to seem rude, and I'm sorry if I did. I'm far from being certain that he'll die in book 6, to be honest. I just have the feeling that his "Oh my god, how will they ever be able to get out of this?"-point will be at the end of HBP.

[Just Mom]

Please forgive me for being 40 and stupid about matters of world time. If it's 3:20 and 3:50 (P.M.) respectively in your parts of the world, are we all still on the same day of January 24?

I didn't think you were rude Siana. I have seen a touch of rudeness in this topic but it wasn't from you. The cliffhanger thing is I'm sure a given for HPB and I'm wondering at this point (after your excellent "redemptive pattern of Snape" post) how much of Book 7 has been written.

Let's rephrase this thing on DD. I was reflecting on it and I'm not sure "die" is the right word here. Perhaps there will come a point where he is "out of commission" in terms of wizarding activity to a certain a degree, but I thought my friend's observation on DD being JKR's "voice" very often throughout the series, was interesting and telling. If you notice the very first book, it's DD's view of Privet Drive that we really see because he's already there and he's the first real character to appear. (McGonagal is there too but she doesn't speak first and she's been a cat for the day) Each time we get information about the important things of the story, (including all we know about LV and Harry's inexplicable connection) it usually comes from DD. Information that is withheld, comes is withheld through DD. He is the "omniscient" sound of the series which is JKR. It would be hard for an author to switch voices before the series ends although some folks like Faulkner and even Dickens in the Old Curiosity Shop have done it. It's still awkward though and I don't see JKR doing experimental literature techniques this far into the story. I would see DD through accident or illness or willful design, stepping out of his leadership role he currently posseses somehow so that a successor can come forward which fulfills the arc of the story while still keeping DD's "voice," alive and around somewhere. Harry though isn't DD's successor. I suspect Snape could be. (if the "redemptive pattern" stuff holds and I think it will.)

JKR likes to throw out little things here and there to amuse and confuse her readers. When she says, "there will be more deaths..." we all automatically assume it's someone, some character we really like and don't want to part with. All those deaths don't have to be major players. So far, in my opinion, none of the deaths have been "major" folks. I didn't even consider Sirius (don't shoot me) a "major" character really but I almost wonder if his death was one of those not-thought- out- in- advance deaths but she wrote and wrote and realized Sirius needed to be eliminated in the physical sense in order to get to her planned destination.

[Hagger 9003]

thats ok, siana. i wasn't really angry sorry if i was rude to any1

yes, i do think your right, rev mom. DD is how jk communicates with the readers, so if he dies, i don't know how we will learn his plan. i like you idea, rev mom. maybe everyone wil think he is dead, or he will disappear, making everyone fear the worst. then, he will probably appear again. however, this sounds a bit cheesy tho. "oh no, DD's dead", "no, he's alive again." not jk's style. i dont kno what to expect. being pushed out of leadership sounds good as well. sorry again, siana, i hope i haven't offended any1.

btw, what i mean is that it was 3:30 here, and we are 1 hr ahead of GMT. where r u, then siana? (its still the 24th, dont worry, your not old, rev mom)

[Mistress Siana]

I wasn't offended at all, I just reread some posts and didn't like the tone I used before.

Yeay, the thing about DD being JKR's voice gives me headaches. I makes perfectly sense, but still I feel that it's time for Dumbledore to go. JKR so far made DD leave twice, aways to return the right moment and explain. It kind of follows the same pattern: The fight between Harry and Quirrel/Voldemort could only take place because DD was gone, just as Dumbledore was gone when Harry confronted Riddle, was nowhere to be seen when Voldemort got his body back and was absent a long time in OotP. In the end, Harry almost always has to rely on himself. I believe that DD will die as soon as everything that has to be said is said, the question is how much that's going to be. Does he have a final plan? I'm not sure about that, in the end it was always Harry who acted, who decided. As you both have pointed out, love will play a big role, and love is a factor that's hard to include in a plan. I thought Harry might sacrifice himself and thus defeat Voldemort, I didn't know it was such a famous story...

I live in Bremen (Northern Germany), so it's the same time as in Amsterdam, Hagger. I think I was here about twenty minutes later than you, so don't worry that noone is ever on when you are.