Harry Potter and the Holy Grail?

[hbic3]

I know, I know, Out there huh?

But just listen.

I was reading a book about the Holy Grail. Some of you may know what I'm getting at all ready.

There was a secret order, once upon a time, of men who guarded the secret of the Holy Grail. The Priory of Sion. One of the Grand Master's was a man named Nicolus Flamel. Yes, He really did Exist! Look him up, and so did the Philosopher's stone. Well, not in the sense of a real stone. But, an "idea" a "theology." Those of you who are old enough to know where I'm going with this... keep reading.

The Philosopher's stone is described as such:

"The stone, also referred to as the "tincture," or the "powder" (Greek xerion, which passed through Latin into Arabic as elixir), was allied to an elixir of life, believed by alchemists to be a liquid derived from it. Inasmuch as alchemy was concerned not only with the search for a method of upgrading less valuable metals but also of perfecting the human soul, the philosopher's stone was thought to cure illnesses, prolong life, and bring about spiritual revitalization. The philosopher's stone, described variously, was sometimes said to be a common substance, found everywhere but unrecognized and unappreciated."
(Encyc. Brit., 15th ed., 1976)"

There are alot of "references" in the Potter series, I think to a Grail.

Firstly, the British Title of the first book. And, the inclusion of Nicolus Flamel. The title of the book 4, "The Goblet of Fire".
Harry Potter as (forgive me) Messianic type figure, Voldemort, the evil Satan, serpent, anti-Christ type figure.

Yes, I know this is way out there, but stay with me. Dumbledore has a "watch" with 12 hands??????? 12. Think about that number.

Either Harry or Neville could have been the one to defeat the "dark lord".
Harry, the "half-blood" or Neville the full blood. Reference to Jesus and John the Baptist?

The hand of Glory gives light to the person that holds it. A reference to the Illuminati, who also have "Holy Blood-line" connections? Illuminati meaning Enlightenment.

Oh, My just came across another. Sybill Trelawney. Sybils were female prophets from Aneint Greco-Roman times. Prophets are commonly called SEERS!

Even the password "Caput Draconis". Draconian??? Draco???? Draconian definition for Dictionary.com: Exceedingly harsh; very severe: a draconian legal code; draconian budget cuts.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[After Draco1.] Dra·co1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (drk), Seventh century B.C.

Athenian politician who codified the laws of Athens (c. 621). Lauded for its impartiality, his code was unpopular for its severity.
draconian

adj : of or relating to Draco or his harsh code of laws; "Draconian measures" [syn: Draconian]


Constellation : Draco
Genitive: Draconis
Translation: The Dragon

Astrology: Father of : Galileo connected to Illuminati and the Free Masons.
Sir Isaac Newton: Genius in Physics and Celestial Mechanics. Also once Grand Master of the Priory of Sion.

Caput Draconis means "head of the dragon". It's the north node of the moon and is positive energy. Cauda Draconis being the tail, and the Karmic, south, negative node of the moon. Maybe Voldemort and Harry are north and south of the same Moon? type....thing.....

Voldemort: Volde: english-wield, Danish Volde to occassion, to cause, to govern. Mort: Latin: Death

The Lily is the Fleur de Lis of France, symbolizes purity and is associated with The Virgin Mary and the Ressurection. devotion, emblem of France, Holy Trinity, faith, wisdom, chivalry, royalty ... purity, return of happiness, humility, return of happiness.

Luna: again a celestial and astrological reference.

This is just a tidbit, if you can believe it. No wonder the Christian church had such a problem with this book series!!!! They see it as Paganism.

[Athena Appleton]

Out there, I think...

I should point out that Rowling purposely uses meaningful names (somewhere in here is a thread about the "meaning of names" and deals with a lot of "Rowlinguistics" )

I see what you're saying, but I think she used the meanings/histories behind the names to describe the characters. Therefore, the Divination teacher is called "Sybil", the mean kid is called "Draco", the pure sweet woman is called "Lily", the dog animagus is called "Sirius" (it's a star commonly called the dog star)

About the Philosopher's stone and Nicolus Flamel (sorry if i butchered the name), I think Rowling was trying to mingle legend, history and "fact" (by fact, i mean her Hogwarts world) to make it realistic. Assuming Flamel and the Philosopher's Stone really existed, putting it in the books lends a sort of familiarity (sort of like "Merlin's beard!" being a common phrase, since we all know of Merlin... it's kinda like they use him the way we use King George in "by george!") that makes the story more believable.

Firstly, the British Title of the first book. And, the inclusion of Nicolus Flamel. The title of the book 4, "The Goblet of Fire".
Harry Potter as (forgive me) Messianic type figure, Voldemort, the evil Satan, serpent, anti-Christ type figure.

I see the point, but just about every epic battle of good versus evil is described or paralleled with Christ/Satan. The choice of the serpent as the mascot for the bad guy is a good choice, ever since Adam and Eve, the serpent has been described that way.

Yes, I know this is way out there, but stay with me. Dumbledore has a "watch" with 12 hands??????? 12. Think about that number.

There are a LOT of running themes in the Harry Potter books. Both the numbers 12 and 13 are running themes. They're everywhere. (Fun note: in every chapter 13, there is a major hint as to who is REALLY the bad guy... they usually make a cameo appearance in chapter 13)

Either Harry or Neville could have been the one to defeat the "dark lord".
Harry, the "half-blood" or Neville the full blood. Reference to Jesus and John the Baptist?

Good spot... my first thought was "who was the half-blood?" then realized, oh yeah, I guess God doesn't qualify as being a Jew exactly... I need a nap. Once again, I think there's definately hints and allignments between all this stuff and the Harry Potter series... but I dont' think they're really that intentional. There are also alignments to the WWII/Nazi/Holocaust thing, but those are unintentional. People aligned Star Wars with everything from Christianity to Communism.

Oh, My just came across another. Sybill Trelawney. Sybils were female prophets from Aneint Greco-Roman times. Prophets are commonly called SEERS!

Once again, I think this was intentional to describe the character. Minerva is a derivation of Athena, who was the goddess of learning, knowledge, crafts and war. No coincidence, but I don't think it means anything other than describing the character of McGonagall.

Caput Draconis means "head of the dragon". It's the north node of the moon and is positive energy. Cauda Draconis being the tail, and the Karmic, south, negative node of the moon. Maybe Voldemort and Harry are north and south of the same Moon? type....thing.....

you think too much

Voldemort: Volde: english-wield, Danish Volde to occassion, to cause, to govern. Mort: Latin: Death

Rowling taught French before becoming an author, and in French, if I'm not mistaken, vol de morte means "flight from death"... a reference to Voldy's taking precautions to be immortal

This is just a tidbit, if you can believe it. No wonder the Christian church had such a problem with this book series!!!! They see it as Paganism.

No, "we" (and I use "we" very loosely, as I think the Harry Potter books are wonderful, and so does my preacher, so I don't feel bad reading them ) disagree more with the "occult" part of the Harry Potter books, which, if these people would actually read the books, would find out that they aren't textbooks for teaching the occult, but just good fictional stories. That's the arguement the Church has with the books. Not that they're paganistic, but they're satanic. At least, that's what the members of my MOPS group said... my pastor, who is very openminded and loves fictional literature of all kinds, came and had a talk, and answered questions later, and one woman asked "What are you opinion of the Harry Potter books" in a voice that implied she fully expected him to agree with her that they were of Satan, and he said "J.K. Rowling is a genius." then again, last Easter at the Maundy Thursday service, he told us to watch Jesus Christ Superstar to get a feel for the Easter season... so my pastor's not the norm.

[Alice I]

I'm just curious
What does MOPS stand for?

[Athena Appleton]

oh... MOPS is "Moms of Preschoolers"... it's where we go and interact with other moms a few times a month and hear speakers and our kids are in classes so we get a few childless hours to regain our sanity.

[hbic3]

But there is more pagan beliefs than just Satanism. And Satanism as we understand it today, is NOT it's true origins. Have you ever wondered why the words "Lucifer" and "Lucid" sound so alike? They are of the same origin.

Lucid: Shining; bright; resplendent;
Lucifer: bringing light, Morning Star, Planet Venus
Satan comes from Shaitan, a Hebrew word for Adversary. Nothing more, nothing less. That it was applied to Christian Scriptures to mean just that, and then taken out of context, is a whole other story.

The Vatican considers anything that does not follow their line of belief, Paganism. Anything that does not follow one God, Their God is pagan.

There is alot to learn about the origins of Christian and other religions. What you think you know, you would be surprised to discover, is often not true at all. Even the Vatican tells us that what is written in our Bible is NOT to be taken literally.

What we have been told about Wicca and witchcraft, Satanism, Islam, Judaism, on and on and on. All distortions of the truth.

I do not suggest that Mrs. Rowling is "trying to tell us something." Even about her own beliefs. I only suggest that she uses historically verifiable fact, to creat a story that is steeped in Gnostic and pagan theology. Think about it, why would the church be sooooo afraid of this book, and not of ones such as, say Lord of the Rings? Or Sleeping beauty? Snow White? Cinderella? The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. And any other story you can think of that includes to a great extent, magic and wizardry, sourcery? Why THIS book? Why does this one scare them so much more than any other?

Because the Church is losing it's following. People are becoming more and more educated, and therefore more enlightened. Add to that the recent scandals within the Christian church(and it's not just in the Catholic church, folks), skeptisism(sp?) is rising and at an all time high. The Church loses it's credibility, the Vatican loses it's power and influence.

[Scellanis]

people have way too much time on their hands...its a book...a story about a wizard... *shrugs*

I always knew that philosopher's stone was an actual legend thing, thats one of the reasons why its so good, just like how she brings the welsh dragon to life....taking actual legends and putting them in her novel as part of the wizard world makes the world more beleivable...makes the story better than if she just created a load of strange items nobody had ever heard of before....its fun, i spend alot of time thinking of things that can be better explained by being part of the wizarding world than by science but its only imagination......people definately have way too much time on their hands.....

although I do think it shows just how brilliant JK really is and how much work is needed for a good story, the fact that she can fit it into the real history so well is amazing

Considering Tolkien used the same kind of basis for his stuff....all the greek myths and things I reacon theres nothing special about Rowling's stuff except that its so popular at the moment so the churchs are getting moody and banning it because they cant compete...Tolkien achieved his popularity over many years, just like, sneaked into the position of best fantasy author, JK rises to the top in a couple of years so anyone less popular cant resist the opportunity to try and stop her by moaning.

[Centaur Lord]

Wow...I dont know if theres any connection there, but its certainly fun to think about. And just for the record, I've read those books too! Angels and Demons, and The DaVinci Code by Dan Brown. For anyone who cares, they are some of the best books I've ever read (next to Harry Potter of course ) and you should read them. Anyway, it does say that the secret organization called the Priory of Sion actually existed, and that someone called Nicolas Flamel was the Grand Master (the leader basically), along with well-known people such as Leonardo DaVinci - hence the name - so this isnt some crazy thing some guys just made up for fun. Well, sorry for not actually answering anything in this post, but im bored, and ive read both those books three times so its something i know about. Of course...i know lots more about Harry Potter, ive read them about twenty times each.

[Athena Appleton]

I admit, the parallels are there, but I think they're there to enhance the realism of the story... mixing legend, history and fiction is what makes the Harry Potter books great...

The Vatican considers anything that does not follow their line of belief, Paganism. Anything that does not follow one God, Their God is pagan.

There is alot to learn about the origins of Christian and other religions. What you think you know, you would be surprised to discover, is often not true at all. Even the Vatican tells us that what is written in our Bible is NOT to be taken literally.

Oh, okay, you were talking about the Catholic Church. I was talking about my Baptist church... in general, they don't like it because of the occult, and they associate the occult with satanism.

But, this is a conversation I don't feel comfortable having on the internet (too hard to keep personal feelings out of, and too easy to read things into what's being said and get offended)... I'll just say that I was only referring to the various churches I'm familiar with... Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ... I don't "get" a lot about the Catholic faith, and I don't know their stance on most issues.

Think about it, why would the church be sooooo afraid of this book, and not of ones such as, say Lord of the Rings?

I think the major reason the church (not talking about Catholic church, don't know about them, I'm talking about the folks I know) can accept LOTR and not Harry Potter is that Tolkien was a Christian and he purposely wrote the LOTR books with Christian undertones. CS Lewis was the same way. From what I've heard, Rowling is a member in good standing with the Anglican church, but she's writing a wonderful story about magic that has no purposeful ties to Christianity.

Because the Church is losing it's following. People are becoming more and more educated, and therefore more enlightened. Add to that the recent scandals within the Christian church(and it's not just in the Catholic church, folks), skeptisism(sp?) is rising and at an all time high. The Church loses it's credibility, the Vatican loses it's power and influence.

I am somewhat offended by this, simply because I'm a Christian, a member of the church (not the Catholic one, but still the church) and I find it offensive to say that fewer people are following Christianity because they're more educated and enlightened. It lends the idea that us Christians are uneducated and unenlightened.

this is what I mean about how easy it is to get offended about this topic... if you meant nothing to it, i'm sorry for making a big deal about it.

[hbic3]

I didn't say fewer people are Christians. I said the church is losing it's following, not the religion, the CHURCH. Fewer and fewer people are listening to the Dogma, and realizing the true purpose of religion, Faith in God, not faith in "the powers that be."

I am not a Catholic. I am Protestant, just as you are. Although I am Lutheran and not Baptist. But you must realize that Catholic and Protestant are not separate religions, not separate faiths. We must understand the differences in denominations, before we can understand why ours makes us the most comfortable.

This is going way off topic. My fault, granted.

[Violet]

well to try and pull things back on topic, thats great research hbic3. I think that Jk drew a lot of inspriation from lotads of different historical events, which is why we seem to be able to compare her work to so many real life events. but it does seem that a great deal of her ideas have come out of christianity and the christian faith

[pandora315]

It seems like religious groups will have a problem with many things that don't pay homage to their glory. Anyone remember the tv show God, the Devil and BoB? God I loved that. Anyway I know this is off the topic but why does Satan always have to be bad? I was raised a Catholic and never really figured it out. So if anyone wants a good read I'm recommending Menoch the Devil by Anne Rice.

Now back on track. It was a good point Hbric and it always facinates me to think about the amount of research behind the Rowling works. If you re-read the books looking for it you'll be amazed how many other myths and legends creep up. Everything from events, to names, to mythical creatures. Facinating stuff.

[Evil Wizard Petting Zoo]

If you re-read the books looking for it you'll be amazed how many other myths and legends creep up. Everything from events, to names, to mythical creatures. Facinating stuff.

Speaking of, here's something I remembered last night and I thought I'd poke it in here for fun: Apollyion Pringle. Remember him? The old caretaker that whipped Arthur for being out late? In Greek mythology Apollyion is a monster with a lot of eyes. He looks like a human just with eyeballs all over his body. So the name is definately fitting. Anyways...

[Athena Appleton]

haha, that's cool! I didn't know that!

The other day, I was talking to my mom, and she had to switch lines really quick, and when she came back she said someone kept calling for Barry Privet (her boyfriend, who she works with, is name Barry something-that-sounds-like-Pravit). I kinda laughed, and she asked if I knew what "privet" means (only she was confused and thinking of "privey", an outhouse... oh well)

Anyway, "privet" means "an ornamental shrub", which perfectly describes the appearance of a neat and orderly suburban street. However, in French (which J.K.R. taught), Prevet would be pronounced like "privè", meaning confidental or private life.

[Enchanter]

just a side fact, The real Nicholas Flamel died quite young. The one in the book lived for a long time. Does this mean anything

[Athena Appleton]

I don't really think so...