crouch moody's plan

[Athena Appleton]

this was lightly discussed in the books section, but I think I'll move it over here before it turns into a full-fledge theory...

If things had gone the way Crouch Moody intended them to go the last night of the Triwizard Tournament, Harry alone would have disappeared with the cup to an undisclosed location, died, and not been found immediately, I think. Voldy would return, call his Death Eaters, and start coming into power again, rewarding Crouch for his faithful service.

As we all know, several things went wrong that night, and that plan got messed up. Harry wasn't the only one who was transported to the graveyard, Voldy did come back, but he wasn't able to kill Harry. In fact, Harry returned and told the story of what happened.

Now, what I want to know is, did Crouch Moody know that Snape had the Dark Mark, and did he assume that Snape would join Voldy's team once Voldy was back? I think there are two options:

1. Crouch Moody didn't know Snape's past with the Death Eaters, so he didn't know anyone else at Hogwarts would possibly be called back to Voldy's side that night.

2. Crouch Moody assumed Snape would abandon it all and rejoin the Dark Lord.

The thing that gets me the most is that if he knew Snape had that Dark Mark, he had to have known that once Harry disappeared, and everyone was freaking out, soon afterwards the Dark Mark would burn and call the former Death Eaters to Voldy's side. If Crouch thought Snape was one of those Death Eaters, but that he had turned good, it would make sense that he would go to Dumbledore immediately to let him know that, in addition to Harry missing, his Dark Mark is burning, as if Voldy has returned. I think then that Dumbledore would see to it that Snape could begin his spying immediately and leave to join Voldy at that moment, to find out what is happening.

It's late, and I'm confusing myself... basically just wondering, did Crouch Moody know about Snape?

[Aberforth]

Difficult to say. Voldemort was the only one who knew who all his followers were for security purposes, so it is possible that Moody didn't know. However, I would have thought that LV would have told Moody that a DE or former DE was at Hogwarts, and that Moody could enlist Sanpe's help or should avoid him/spy on him. There seems to be some wooliness about Snape's position and it doesn't make sense why LV doesn't use him more if he thinks Snape is loyal.

Slightly off point, but why does the portkey at the end of GoF work both ways but the portkey to the world cup doesn't. I think the world cup one is passed to someone else before being discarded. It could be because it is set to a specific time (they all held it until a specific time), but it is a little contradictory in terms of that book in isolation because the first time we learn that a portkey works both ways is at the end of the book. I don't think it was done delibereately so that someone could get to Hogwarts becasue LV wanted his return to be secret.

[Groo]

i think Crouch knew that Snape was a DE. he has said in the book that if there was one thing he hated , it was a DE who had gone free and he certainly hated Snape most in GoF. unless he knew about snape, his hate has no justification.

i think he must have though that snape was another of those cowards like Karkaroff who had turned their backs on LV. he thought snape wouldnt return to LV or flee like Karkoraff(which he had anticipated.he told Harry that Karkoraff had fleed which was a conclusion he must have formed as Karkaroff wouldnt have informed him before fleeing )

[Nobby]

yeah i think the snape-being-a-coward-like-karakoff fits best!

about the portkey...umm..i think they take the same portkey back from the world cup but just at a specific. maybe the portkey that moody made didn't have a specific time (just like DD's in OotP), that it worked upon touch. Jk has never explained if a portkey works both ways!

[Athena Appleton]

hmmm... I'm rereading GoF, but I haven't gotton to this part yet, but I thought....

At the World Cup, they turn the portkey in to the ministry, more as a precaution against muggles accidentally using it than anything... But we don't know if the same portkeys can get used again. I think they turn them all in, and sometime during the World Cup, the ministry re-assigns the portkeys to take the wizards home, then redistributes them as the wizards are leaving to go home.

[Nobby]

some many ?'s and so little time!

[Dumbledores Master]

Aberforth: the hatred for Snape could have just to stay in the charachter of moody

[Nobby]

yeah-moody wouldn't like a ex DE either

[Emma'I'm a real witch']

Just a thought, maybe Moody set the portkey to go both ways because LV was planning to use it to get to Hogwarts after he had killed Harry. Because you can't apparate there so him and his DE's were all going to use it to get to the school.

[Aberforth]

As I said earlier, I don't think so because LV wanted to keep his return secret so he could steadily gain power again. Bursting into Hogwarts as soon as he returned wouldn't be the best plan to keep your return quiet.

[Ferrus]

In general I believe that Snape is acting as a double agent (or, at least is acting as if he was doing so), so Voldie would want Snape´s identity as secret as possible, after all a spy right next to Dumbledore is the best weapon that Voldemort has against Dumbledore.

[Athena Appleton]

yeah, as much as I hate agreeing with Aberforth (:grin: j/k, abe), Voldy definately had no intention of showing up at Hogwarts immediately after getting a body and killing Harry. Remember, Dumbledore said that Harry foiled Voldy's plan, because he told. Would Voldy's plan be foiled if Harry told, if he was planning to show up there anyway?

nnnnnnnnnope

[Mistress Siana]

In general I believe that Snape is acting as a double agent (or, at least is acting as if he was doing so), so Voldie would want Snape´s identity as secret as possible, after all a spy right next to Dumbledore is the best weapon that Voldemort has against Dumbledore.

That would leave some questions:

1) Why didn't Voldemort simply tell Snape to prepare the portkey? Why make such a lot of effort just to get a second DE into Hogwarts?
2) If Voldemort really believed that Snape has been a loyal follower during his absence, why does he regard Crouch as his most faithfull servant and not Snape?
3) Who ist the "one I believe has left me forever", as LV says at the DE gathering in graveyard?

I think LV knows about Snape's true identity but doesn't tell his DEs for some reason. [/list]

[Athena Appleton]

Ummm... my brain's fuzzy right now...

What I'm trying to think is:

Look at it through Voldemort's eyes for a minute. When Voldemort returned, there was no real way of knowing for sure who would return and who wouldn't. He had to assume that there were those who were still faithful and the last thirteen years had made no difference to them, there were those who wanted no longer to be among his followers, and those who were putting up a good face around everyone else but who were still faithful. I assume Voldemort knew Snape was a teacher at Hogwarts, and common sense would tell him that if Snape was a faithful follower, the timing of all the events wouldn't leave Snape in a good position to show up at the graveyard immediately.

Before his return in GoF, Voldemort realized that not all of his Death Eaters, even the very faithful ones, would want anything to do with him until he had some power. It would take a really insanely faithful guy (Crouch) or a really cornered guy (Wormtail) to follow someone who was in the state Voldemort was in at that time. Wormtail and Crouch both were offering their services to him, really without having been asked. He didn't approach them without knowing for sure that they were still on his side (unless I'm very much mistaken, Crouch had already done the Death Mark at the World Cup before Voldemort approached him). It's not that hard to fathom, then, that he didn't just go up to Snape, who he had lost touch with in the last 13 years, rather than arranging to plant someone he knew would be on his side into Hogwarts.

[Ferrus]

Good point(s) Athena. Voldemort wouldn´t know if he could really trust Snape at all (especially because he might not be totally sure if he was a spy for DD or not), so he had to get somebody else who he knew wouldn´t backstab him to do the job. I like it.