Snape, a murderer?

[Athena Appleton]

well, something made Snape decide to switch sides, so I figured that's as good a reason as any... i think that's what happened

[Mistress Siana]

I don't really think you can compare Schindler and Snape. During the 3. Reich, almost everybody officially declared himself a Nazi, be it just to stay alive. Everybody who aspired a higher position had to be in the the party, and not everybody had to kill. Schindler certainly never came into such a situation, whereas you cannot be a DE without killing or torturing.

But consider this: When Snape turned a spy, he kept up his usual work in Voldemort's circle, which means continuing the killing etc...only for a different purpose. So Snape most certainly was a killer and torturer of innocent people in both names, that of Voldemort and that of Dumbledore. See what light that fact casts on DD? Using the same means as Voldemort, only for different purposes?

[Alice I]

But consider this: When Snape turned a spy, he kept up his usual work in Voldemort's circle, which means continuing the killing etc...only for a different purpose.

I do not see why Snape has to be wandering around killing people to be in with the DEs. He may very well have had other work for Voldemort like maybe heas a spy for Voldie as he was working at Hogwarts at the time Voldie was big. DD caught him, he told some story to DD which DD believes and then continued to spy only this time for DD.

So Snape most certainly was a killer and torturer of innocent people in both names, that of Voldemort and that of Dumbledore. See what light that fact casts on DD? Using the same means as Voldemort, only for different purposes?

I'm sorry but where is your evidence to support this theory?
I simply do not see Albus Dumbledore ordering the torture or murder of innocents;
regardless of what end it might benefit.

[Athena Appleton]

I agree with what Alice said... I completely disagree with that theory.

I don't really think you can compare Schindler and Snape. During the 3. Reich, almost everybody officially declared himself a Nazi, be it just to stay alive. Everybody who aspired a higher position had to be in the the party, and not everybody had to kill. Schindler certainly never came into such a situation, whereas you cannot be a DE without killing or torturing.

Well... have you ever read any back-stories of various people during WWII? Schindler was one of the big Nazi people, he made it his life to exploit the Jews and somewhere along the line took advantage of that position. I know not everyone had to kill, but to run a "concentration camp" without torturing or killing any of the prisoners was dangerous for Schindler. I don't think Snape and Schindler are the same guy, I just think there may be a few similarities.

[Groo]

i dont think DD orders torturing of innocents like ALice said. in fact ,i dare say, i dont see absolutely anything negative in DD's character at all. he is almost a God in his character, though not possibly in his decisions.

He might know that Snape has to torture muggles in Voldy's presence, but he has to give in to some things. after all its Voldemort.

[Mistress Siana]

I didn't say DD ordered killing people. I just said that the moment he decided to let Snape work for him as a spy, DD had to accept the fact that Snape might come into a situation where he would be forced to carry out an order that includes killing.
Snape officially remained a Death Eater, after changing sides, he continued to do whatever he did before.

Snape works as a Death Eater to help LV increase his power, then
Snape works as a Death Eater to get information for DD.
Does that make the work itself better?

[Phinea Rogue]

I think it's a bit strange that DD won't give him DADA classes, but he allows him to continue as a Death Eater under Voldemort to get information. He certainly comes in contact with Dark Arts there, isn't that dangerous?

Anyone, I can't imagine Dumbledore accepting killings or tortures just to get information. He's not that sort of man who would use any means to achieve his ends, so maybe Snape's doing something else for LV. *just hoping, I don't really want him to be a murderer*

[Athena Appleton]

I think the reason Dumbledore lets Snape be around Voldy and the Death Eaters, but won't let him teach DADA, is because he knows that he really doesn't have a choice with the first, but he can pick someone else to do the DADA. I mean, there aren't many people in the unique place Snape is in, you know, where he can hear firsthand what Voldy's planning. But, really, he does have the option to have someone else teach DADA.

If Dumbledore had his 'druthers, I think he'd not have Snape anywhere near dark arts. But since he needs the spy, he's willing to let Snape do that, but not just open up every dark arts door there is to him.

[Phaerie]

We don't actually know why Dumbledore won't let Snape teach DADA. Everyone is kinda assuming that its Dumbledore doesn't want Snape getting mixed up in the dark arts again. Yet in a complete contradiction of terms sends him off to masquarade as a dath eater. Thus it seems quite likely that one of these assumptions is wrong.

What we know as fact is:
1. Snape has consistently been refused the DADA job
2. Snapes job for the OotP is to find out what Voldemort is saying to the DE's.

I personally don't think that Snape is really pretending to be a death eater in his job for the order now. We know that he is a "superb occlumens" so it is quite possible that he is using that combined with memory charms to obtain the information he requires, without voldemort and the DE's realising what he is up to. This is also what he could have done once he turned spy for the Order.

However before he turned spy, it is quite likely he did kill people, that is after all what being a DE involved. he certainly has the temperament fo it. Like in OotP when Harry looks at his memories in the pensieve. And thats after 15 years as a teacher, learning to control himself.

[Alice I]

There is only one thing I want to interject about this Phaerie. (BTW I love your Avatar!)
In an interview JKR did say something along the lines of DD doesn't want to have Snape teach DADA because he feels that there is a conflict there or something like that.
It sounded a lot like Athena's theory of keeping Snape away from the Dark Arts because of temptation. (sorry Athena now everyone is still gonna think that you are JKR)

The other thing that occured to me was also something that JKR said about Snape.
DD lets him to teach even though he is brutal and unfair because DD feels that the kids need to learn reality.
Snape's foul disposition while in a position of athuority is a not so pleasent reality.
So maybe his unfair attitude would be more harmful in the DADA job than in the Potions job and that is why he doesn't get it.
*shrugs just a thought*

[Phaerie]

Very true. And if you think about it, whilst potions is a very useful subject, if you don't learn it, or do well in it, its not the end of the world. Almost like its not as critical to learn it. Hence it doesn't matter as much if the students are a little discouraged
Whilst DADA is rather important ( esp now Voldemort is back) and can be used immediately. ( potions can take months to brew) Dumbledore has always known that Voldemort would come back, so wants his students to study diligently. Which makes it strange the shambles they've had over DADA teachers. I wonder why DD doesn't teach it himself.

[Athena Appleton]

I definately think you're on the right track.

However, I do want to point out that saying that Dumbledore doesn't want Snape to have the DADA job because he doesn't want him around the dark arts isn't necessarily contradictory with Dumbledore's using him as a spy for the Death Eaters.

STUPID ANALOGY TIME: When my kids go over to my dad's house, my oldest child will almost definately receive or be allowed to do at least three things he doesn't at home. I bow to the inevitable. But when we're at home, I don't let Cameron have chocolate, or sodas, or allow him to tear up my house.

Dumbledore is using Snape as a spy because he has no one else who is willing to or in a position to do that job. He has a LOT more people available to teach DADA. Now, no, they may not be as qualified, but if Dumbledore has the reasons I think he does, he's willing to have a less qualified teacher in there (even though, naturally, he wants the most qualified teacher he can get) rather than putting Snape in temptation's way again. But just because he allows Snape to do something with dark arts doesn't mean he's going to open the door to letting him do everything dark arts, ya know? Maybe it's just one of those things that makes perfect sense in my head, because people repeatedly act like the two are contradictory, and they aren't.

[Mistress Siana]

Hm, it's not necessarily a fact that it is Snape's job to find out what LV says to his DEs. It's just what Harry assumes, and just because Snape doesn't deny it, it doesn't have to be a fact. I think he seemed all too pleased with Harry thinking that.

So, Snape changed sides because he somehow regained a conscience, worked as a spy, and now that Voldie's back, he works as a spy again.
Somehow I can't believe that, it's way too obvious. Too easy for JKR.

[Groo]

Hm, it's not necessarily a fact that it is Snape's job to find out what LV says to his DEs.

you are right that it is not confirmed, just Harry's thoughts but there are lots of proofs to back that up.
1. snape definately worked as a spy earlier.
2. his knowledge of occlumency
3. his current acquaintance with the Malfoys despite knowing that they are DEs
4. he did go somewhere on the day of Voldy's rebirth
etc..etc

hmm.. developing a conscience must not have been that gradual, some incident must have occured which completely changed Snape's life since his point of view and loyalty changed with that.

[Groo]

Hm, it's not necessarily a fact that it is Snape's job to find out what LV says to his DEs.

you are right that it is not confirmed, just Harry's thoughts but there are lots of proofs to back that up.
1. snape definately worked as a spy earlier.
2. his knowledge of occlumency
3. his current acquaintance with the Malfoys despite knowing that they are DEs
4. he did go somewhere on the day of Voldy's rebirth
etc..etc

hmm.. developing a conscience must not have been that gradual, some incident must have occured which completely changed Snape's life since his point of view and loyalty changed with that.