LotR discussion

[Scellanis]

Yes that is all the rings.

Its not a case of getting it into your head, the ring deceives you. It tricks you, stay near it to long and you think of it as precious to you, the ring uses you to take it back to its master.

Now I don't think anyone can destroy the other rings (the dwarf ones were eaten by dragons..I mean, you cant exactly wear them then unless you are inside the dragon too and all the great worms or dragons like Smaug are dead by the time of the war of the ring, Smaug is the last of them), you have to destroy the one ring first but its not going to let you do that, its very powerful, Isildur had it for not long at all and already it had enough hold over him so that he couldn't destroy it by throwing it in Mount Doom after the battle of the last alliance. Frodo was told numerous times that the ring is trying to get back to it master, it uses people as carriers and betraying them when a better opportunity comes along...that is how it transferred itself from Isildur to Gollum, Gollum to Bilbo. Bilbo is the only person strong enough to give up the ring freely and he needed Gandalf's help to do it. Look at the ring bearers, Isildur tells people the ring is precious to him because he bought it dearly, his father died, the ring has tricked him into not wanting to destroy it. The ring then is getting taken away from where it wants to be and takes the opportunity to slip off Isildur's finger into the river. Deagol picks it up many years later and Smeagol kills his best friend to get it, more ring at at work there. Now it convinces Smeagol its very precious to him, Smeagol thinks it is his birthday present. But the ring isn't getting anywhere stuck underground, what it wants is to find an orc but it gets Bilbo instead and even Bilbo calls it precious. He makes up lies to claim the ring for his own and convince himself it is rightfully his, the ring at work again. It has Frodo by the end to, Frodo couldn't destroy it, he would have kept it but Gollum couldn't give it up either, Gollum didn't want to destroy it either.

As for the wraiths, this is the bit I don't clearly understand. People in middleearth have a spirit bit and a physical bit. Elves have more control over their spirit part since they are immortal or something. Anyway, but the rings of magic kind of split these two bits apart, they work with the spirit part as I understood it which is why frodo looks invisible when he wears it. If you are around them too long and use them too much you just loose the physical appearance completely and become a wraith, the wraith is then bound to Sauron until the ring is destroyed. The nine ring wraiths are completely bound to their rings and so to Sauron, he has complete control over them. They took the rings because they were blinded by greed and the need for power and so when Sauron offered the rings they took them without question and so he took control over them.
Humans are the easiest to corrupt by the way, because they are mortals whereas elves would be the hardest I'm thinking though hobbits seem to be pretty sturdy. I think Dwarves aren't affected by the rings in the same way that hobbits aren't, its a desire for power that corrupts quickest and dwarves are only insterested in the gold in their mountains and nothing else and hobbits aren't interested in anything outside of the shire. I mean, it would get to them eventually but alot slower since they aren't concerned with the thing it has to offer them.
Gandalf in theory ought to be able to cope, he has a ring but I think the thing with him is that he is powerful enough to be able to weild the thing and the temptation to try it to help his friends would be too great, once he did that the ring would get to work on him and if it succeeded it would be able to do great evil with the power the Gandalf has.

Boromir was unfortunate, apart from just the temptation of the Ring itself, he has the hopes of his father Denethor pushing him forward to get it even though he probably knows he couldn't weild it if he got it. The pressure from his father and the hopes of his people that he needs to protect coupled with the ring itself wanting to get into the hands of a man since those are easiest to corrupt and most likely to take it back to Sauron are just too much. Denethor is already corrupted by Sauron, he wants the ring because he thinks he can use it to protect Minas Tirith but in reality he wants the Ring because Sauron wants him to get it for him and has groomed him into searching for it through the palantirs situated in Mordor and Minas Tirith in the same way the he corrupted Saruman into wanting it.

[fierce]

And the elves can't be corrupted at all? I mean, their rings were bound to the one ring as well weren't they? I thought that the orcs used to be elves, so how did they become evil? I'm not sure if it's the same in the books as in the movies, but Galadriel tested herself and found that she could be corrupted by the power of the one ring as well, she became power hungry or something, and went all crazy. But she has a ring too, does she not? I'm confuzzled.

And also, how do elves decide when they will stop ageing? Because again, I'm not sure if it's the same in the book as the movie, but some looked older than the others. So they're immortal, but what dictates how old they look, or how long their bodies age for before they stop?

[Scellanis]

elves can be corrupted eventually, I doubt by their own rings (while Sauron doesn't own the one ring) as they forged them themselves but if they were to get the one ring it would be similar to why Gandalf didn't want it...Elrond and Galadriel would be corrupted through the desire to use it for good and end up as evil dark lords/queens.

Yes orcs were elves. Sauron is the apprentice of Morgoth, Morgoth taught Sauron everything he knows, Morgoth I think was a Valar and at some point he was banished from Middleearth. Anyway, it was Morgoth that created the dragons and the winged beasts that the nazgul ride, balrogs (Balrogs are the evil equivalent of wizards). Anyways, lots of wars between elves and Morgoth were faught, see the silmarillion for more details. Orcs are the elves that Morgoth took prisoner, he tortured and mutilated them until they became orcs.

I'm not sure whether it is like that in books and I don't know how it works. Its probably exagerated in the movie just to make elves like Elrond obviously wiser and older than Arwen and Legolas as we know they are in the books but would probably not realise if we hadn't read them and they all looked the same age. Also I think people who hadn't read the books may have had issues with understanding why Aragorn and the others go to Elrond for advice if Elrond looked younger and prettier than the people he was advising.

[pallas artemis]

About the rings corruptive powers:

The nine men fell to the power of the one partly do to their own greed for power and the over use of their own rings but inevitably because they didn't hide their rings from sauron. The elves hid theirs and did not use them to battle Sauron. By not using them when Sauron was in possession of the one they escaped relatively unscathed.

correct me if I'm wrong Sonkem

[Ferrus]

Yep, thats about how it was, Psllas Artemis.

[Scellanis]

no idea

Although the elves definately did use their rings. Lothlorien is what it is because Galadriel used her ring to create and sustain it...I think Rivendell would be similar...now that the rings are destroyed because her ring will not work now the one ring is gone....the elves will fade and diminish and pass into the west because the two powerful elven realms or Rivendell and Lothlorien require the rings. Mirkwood or Greenwood doesn't have help from rings though, it might last better. I cant remember if Elrond had his ring during the last alliance or not, I think he was given it by his father at some point. Galadriel I think is more powerful and alot older than Elrond, she came from the undying lands I think...Elrond is a half elf and born in Middleearth.

Its just that elves are more powerful, they have more control over the stuff I mentioned about spirit and stuff (you would see this in Glorfindel if you read the book, he appears to Frodo in his spirit form due to the fact that Frodo is fading...Glorfindel can do this because Glorfindel has already seen the undying lands...actually, I seem to remember that Arwen does it in the movie but its never explained and my sister seems to suggest she wouldn't be able to do that having been born in Middleearth but I could be getting confused). Anyways, the elves can close their minds and resist Sauron while he doesn't have the one ring, they can hide but if he got it they and their work would be laid bare.

The men just don't have the ability to hide the rings I think and are very susceptible to the techniques Sauron would use to corrupt them.....the dwarves didn't fall victim because they didn't care for anything except the gold in their mountains or maybe lost their rings to the dragons to fast.

[pallas artemis]

I cant remember if Elrond had his ring during the last alliance or not, I think he was given it by his father at some point.

No, Elrond recieved his ring during the last alliance. He was the "squire", or something like that, for Gilgalad, and Gilgalad gave him his ring as he died.

Glorfindel can do this because Glorfindel has already seen the undying lands...actually, I seem to remember that Arwen does it in the movie but its never explained and my sister seems to suggest she wouldn't be able to do that having been born in Middleearth but I could be getting confused).

First, let me say that Glorfindel is my faovorite character. His entrance gave me goose bumps. Anyway. . . she is absolutely right. Glorfindel glows like that because he had once stood in the precence(sp) of the two trees before they were poisoned. Arwen has never been in the undying land, she isn't old enough (only something like 2500 yrs. old), so she should not be able to radiate her own light. Elrond and Celeborn (Galadriel's husband) don't have this ability either but Galadriel does.

[Devinci]

I'm jumping in this conversation way late, but alas, so life goes

Anyway, about elves glowing...Elves that have been in Valinor and seen the trees and so forth glow. But in one part of the book, it describes Legolas (especially his eyes) glowing in the darkness (It was when they were on the Paths of the Dead).

PJ probably decided to give all the elves that "oo spooky" glowing effect in the movie, especially Arwen, to illustrate the huge contrast between people and elves, the dark and light, good and evil....mushy scenes and action sequences....men and women?? Hot and...not hot?

[pallas artemis]

Although the elves definately did use their rings. Lothlorien is what it is because Galadriel used her ring to create and sustain it...I think Rivendell would be similar...now that the rings are destroyed because her ring will not work now the one ring is gone...

I'm backing up a little. . . . I don't think that Elrond and Galadriel created Lothlorien and Rivendell nearly so much as they sustained them. I think that what makes Rivendell and Lothlorien so special is that when your there your not in the here and now. Your in a place that existed long ago and it hasn't been touched by time.
Now that the rings are diminished the ability to separate them from the wareing of time will be no more. They will begin to age like the rest of middle earth and in that way they will disappear.

[Celeone]

Lord of the Rings rules! But okay. I'm going to meet Andy Serkis (Gollum), Craig Parker (Haldir) and two other Elfs (I don't know the names, they are brothers...) One playes Glorfindel (don't ask my where), and you can see the other by Haldir, in Lothlórien. Oh, I'm so excited.
And Galadriel said something about created Lothlórien, I thought. And Elrond has a Ring too. I think it was already a place, but that the Ring made it the way it is now. Then you can ask how the Grey Havens are created as well, 'cause Círdan has one of the three Rings .
The forces by nature helped a hand

[Augusta Longbottom]

My god you guys, you have me so psyched up to read these books! I once tried to read The Hobbit but lost interest -- actually I think I'd lost interest because a new HP book had just been released. But now so much time has lapsed -- and I am so intrigued. I have sworn I would read all the books someday but now after reading this discussion here, I am certain! Of course, I just ordered a bunch of new books so that will hold me over for a bit but I am quite sure I can hint to DH enough to get me all the LOTR books for my birthday in July.

I think I'm going to need to form a "book club" online here once I begin reading it so I don't miss any of the intricacies of the books. I'll be in my common room pestering Sonkem left and right..."what's this mean Sonkem?"..."what's that mean Sonkem?...."am I driving you nuts yet Sonkem?"....and so on...lol!

[Scellanis]

hmm, Glorfindel isn't in the movies...if he was then he would have kept his role that Arwen stole wouldn't he....

And Cirdan doesn't have a ring, he gave his ring to Gandalf a long time ago.

Lol, feel free to bug me divabeadz though I may not check the forum everyday

I just got a wonderful Hobbit book, its the annotated Hobbit novel. Its got all kinds of notes about language used and where Tolkien's ideas might have come from and a huge amount of illustrations, ones by Tolkien himself and ones for all the other editions of the Hobbit...and beleive me, there arte millions of different editions of the Hobbit...it surprised me by quite how many different countries had their own editions.

[pallas artemis]

Sonkem I am sooooo jealous!! I have seen the annotated Hobbit at the book store and wanted to get it for months but just don't have the extra money, particularly since I already have a copy of it.

My mother isn't much of a reader and she gets angry with me for buying so many books. "You work at a library" or "Haven't you already read that? Why would you need to buy it"

She just doesn't understand


change of subject:

I think that the character of Glorfindel would have been in the council scene but he was unnamed. And the reason that Arwen went to save Frodo from the ringwriaths is because it is kind of a left over bit from an early idea to make Arwen more of a warrior. She was orriginally scripted to fight at Helm's Deep. I'm very glad that they didn't go that direction with her character but since they ditched the rest they should have changed the flight from the wraiths as well!!

[Scellanis]

no, its my firm believe she got that part because they needed to make Arwen more interesting and appealing and they just didn't have time to ontroduce Glorfindel for one little scene in the first movie and then not have him anywhere else....

I got the anotaded Hobbit in The Works bookshop for £5.99 instead of the usual £25

[pallas artemis]

I got the anotaded Hobbit in The Works bookshop for £5.99 instead of the usual £25

OOOOOooooo! I may not be able to like you anymore!!