Profession of Lily and James

[Athena Appleton]

There are two scenarios that I think could have happened, and both include James and Lily knowing about the prophesy.

1. Dumbledore told the Potters and the Longbottoms about what was going on. I really really doubt that he would have kept that a secret from them, since the main important thing was to keep both of the kids the prophesy could be talking about safe and alive.

2. Dumbledore heard the prophesy, but before he told the Potters and Longbottoms about it, his informant (Snape, I betcha) told him that Voldemort was for sure going after the Potters. Therefore, he could get out of telling the Longbottoms about it.

I lean more towards the first one, because more than a year went by between the time of the prophesy and the fall of Voldemort, so I think Dumbledore would have gotton to both families immediately, rather than wait around to see if someone would tell him what Voldemort had planned. After all, Voldemort could have decided to go after the newborn for all he knew.

Either way, I just don't see the parents not knowing that Voldemort was after their child in particular. Because the prophesy makes it clear that the only one who can get rid of Voldemort is a child that meets these particular qualifications, and because there are only two children who could meet those qualifications, then I don't think he (Dumbledore) would risk those children's safety for the peace of mind of the parents.

About Lily being a homemaker... something that we've kinda wondered about is the fact that never once have we heard anything about what wizard children do before going to Hogwarts, and we've never heard of a babysitting situation. It appears to be common practice for wizard children to either go to regular primary schools or be tutored at home (the Weasleys were all taught at home before Hogwarts, according to the World Book Day chat with J.K. Rowling). That (the non-mentioned babysitter) and the fact that Harry was in grave danger lead me to believe that Lily stayed at home with her son.

[harrylover]

wow great explanation athena...i agree with the first one because i strongly think that dumbledore warned both families for the safety of both babies. I also agree on lily staying at home after harry was born. I think that´s normal, why should she go straight back to work? Also she (i think) must have known about the prophecy so she wouldn´t have wanted her child with a baby sitter (if there is something like that) or with anyone else...

[Athena Appleton]

From what I can tell, the Order of the Phoenix is run a lot the same way as resistance groups in World War II were run (yeah, I know, I'm constantly pointing out comparisons to WWII... I'm fascinated by it.)

In many instances, talented individuals with great contacts who once gave so much to the cause were put in a situation where their work with the resistance was more of a hinderance than a help, and they had to stop their work to ensure their own survival.

I think, at whatever point Dumbledore told the Potters about the prophesy, this is when they stopped all work with the Order of the Phoenix. No matter how talented they were, how necessary they were, their main job from that point on was to keep Harry hidden and safe.

Since I think they knew about the prophesy, possibly even before Harry was actually born (if Dumbledore told them immediately, Harry and Neville weren't born yet), I think both James and Lily were staying at home during their last days.

Okay... This is more so that I can get my thoughts in order than anything else.

Here's how I think it went down...

James was working outside the home doing something, possibly Lily was too.

Dumbledore heard the prophesy and told the Potters and the Longbottoms about it.

Harry and Neville were born.

Lily, and probably Alice, stayed at home from that point on. It's possible that James and Frank continued to work for a while longer, but it's not absolutely necessary (they both had means to live off of, not to mention, I doubt anyone from the Order would have let their families starve). Because it's possible that Neville's gran (a talented and respected witch) may have been with Alice and the baby, Frank may have decided to continue working outside the home. Or it's possible that the setup of the Order was similar to what it is in OotP, with members of the Order living in a headquarters... If that's the case, then Lily, Alice, Lupin (who most likely didn't have a job back then either), and anyone else who was a part of the Order, lived in the house, but didn't go in to the office every day felt comfortable taking care of the babies themselves, leaving things open for James and Frank to feel a bit more at ease with working outside the home.

At some point, I do think that Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was after Harry specifically. This is when I think he told the Longbottoms they were off the hook, when James began staying at home for sure, and when the plan to hide the Potters was conceived.

The fidelius charm was performed to hide the Potters, with Wormtail being the secret-keeper, because, after all, who would ever suspect that they would put Wormtail in charge of something so important?

Almost immediately (the same day, perhaps a week later) Wormtail tells Voldemort where to find the Potters. Voldemort goes and kills James and Lily, is unable to kill Harry, and loses his powers and disappears.

Sirius and Wormtail have their confrontation.

And we pick up where the books begin.

[Nobby]

that's really plausible athena!

one thing i would say though, is the prophecy doesn't actually become linked to harry until voldermort strikes (please don't call him voldy, i heard Jk hates it when people call him voldy)!

although dumbledore probably had his spies (snape most likely), i still feel that dumbledore would want the longbottoms to hide as well, until the prophecy specifically links harry or neville! because afterall everyone can make mistakes and Dumbledore wouldn't want to hide the wrong family!

[Alice I]

So Nobby do you think that the Longbottoms were also hidden by the fedelius charm?
It wouldn't makew sense to hide just the Potters with this charm and not the Longbottoms if there was still a question of who the actual target was.
So now that leads me to ask if the Longbottoms were protected by the same charm, how did the DE's find them to torture them?

Now this next ? is off topic but my last ? made me think of it.

If they (the Longbottoms) were staying at home with Neville to protect him how is it that Neville did not witness the torture of his folks?

[Athena Appleton]

one thing i would say though, is the prophecy doesn't actually become linked to harry until voldermort strikes (please don't call him voldy, i heard Jk hates it when people call him voldy)!

Did I? I've been trying to keep from doing that since I read that... I don't think she really "hates" it... if you read it in the context of what she's talking about, she doesn't agree with people thinking of Voldemort affectionately in the least... but it's all in the tone of humor when she's talking about it...

Anyway...

Alice, are you telling me that things don't go on in your house that Emmy and Ally are completely oblivious to after their bedtime? It's entirely possible that Neville was there, but since he was just a year old, even really major things can go over a kid's head completely...

Anyway, you should also remember that even though the Longbottoms may have been in hiding before the attack, by the time Frank and Alice (:lol: this is kind of funny... I just realized that Phoebe's brother and sister-in-law on the tv show Friends were Frank and Alice... anyway............) by the time Frank and Alice were attacked, it had been established which child the prophesy was talking about, so they probably would have assumed the worst was over and come out of hiding. So Neville may not have been there.

And I still don't discount the idea that Neville had a whopper of a memory charm put on him as a small child...

[Nobby]

I would say that the Longbottoms story went like this.......

i would say that it was most likely that the Longbottoms used the fidelius charm too! And they probably made Neville's gran the secret keeper! Hiding themselves against Voldermort or any death eaters at the time.

Then, after Voldermort strikes (killing Lily and James and marking Harry as his equal), the Longbottoms come out of hiding as Voldermort has supposedly fallen and the death eaters dispersed!

However, some of the death eaters (Bellatrix, Crouch Junior etc) go after the Longbottoms in desperation of their Lord's dissapearance, toturing them into insanity.

As for Neville being in the house at the time, it is really likely like Athena said that Neville was upstairs and totally oblivious to the happenings downstairs! but then why didn't the death eaters then attack Neville? I would say that it was most likely that Neville was at his gran's at the time whilst the Longbottoms were on Order business (afterall they would want to find out for sure if Voldermort had gone or that the remaining death eaters had been caught)

Then on the way home, or at home whilst Neville was in the capable hands of his grans the death eaters caught up with the Longbottoms, thus have been in St Mungo's ever since.

[Groo]

you put my entire thoughts in your above post Nobby

i support the theory that Neville was not a witness of his parents torture. but i dont think he had any memory charm put on him. all he has is a bad memory and a clumsy nature. consider the case of Bertha Jorkins where people unhitchingly used to comment "She could have gone in the wrong country and got lost" or things like that which were way above the normal poor memory incidents. he justs forgets his possesions at home and other such normal things.

i guess both the Potters and the Longbottoms knew about the prophecy. but then again, Dumbledore seems to have a tendancy for not telling the right things at the right time (j/k)

[Athena Appleton]

but then why didn't the death eaters then attack Neville?

Didn't the Death Eaters torture Frank and Alice because they were trying to get information? If this is the case, there are a few possibilities.

1. It wasn't necessary to do anything to Neville, and while I'm sure they would have had some fun torturing the one-year-old, he wouldn't have been able to give them one bit of information.

2. They may not have known Neville was there. Depending on how soundly he slept, he could have been upstairs the whole time, completely oblivious to what was going on, and they tortured the parents and stuff, then were caught before having a chance to search the house for anyone else.

3. The torture didn't happen at the Longbottom's home. This would pretty much mean, I think, that someone would have been staying with baby Neville but Frank and Alice were tortured while they were away from home.

but i dont think he had any memory charm put on him. all he has is a bad memory and a clumsy nature. consider the case of Bertha Jorkins where people unhitchingly used to comment "She could have gone in the wrong country and got lost" or things like that which were way above the normal poor memory incidents. he justs forgets his possesions at home and other such normal things.

Well... If it were just a little passing thing, I would agree with you... but the fact that Rowling is constantly reinforcing that Neville has a particularly bad memory really does make me believe that there's more to it. Also, speaking as a scatterbrain myself I must say, while I forget things all the time, after a fairly long period of time of using a password several times a day, I would have no trouble remembering the password. After five years of going to a school with a notorious "trick" step, I think I would remember to skip it. Neville's memory may be borderline normal, but then it stretches just a little further to the point of being REALLY questionable.

[Eol]

The Longbottoms were tortured after Voldy lost power (JK was joking when she said stop calling him Voldy, Nobby). We know this because its what the Lestranges and Barty Crouch Jnr were sent to Azkaban for, while trying to find out the whereabouts of their master.

As for where Lily and James got their money from, I think it was on JK's website where she says that James inherited a small fortune and passed it on to Harry. Also James was a very talented wizard, so I would think that he would have a very challenging job. I'm sure that Lily was also highly talented too, given the way Hagrid talks about their deaths in PS so I would think that she also had a well paying job, but gave it up to look after Harry.

[pallas artemis]

I think it as likely as not that Neville had a memory charm put on him as a child.

consider the case of Bertha Jorkins where people unhitchingly used to comment "She could have gone in the wrong country and got lost" or things like that which were way above the normal poor memory incidents. he justs forgets his possesions at home and other such normal things.

In this comparison you're looking at one person who has had several major memory charms, Bertha, versus Neville who we think only had one major memory charm. That makes a big difference. And at the world cupwhen they are talking about the memory charms put on the muggle family (can't remember their names at the moment) they said that the effects would wear off. Now, granted the said a major charm could produce permenent damage but it is also reasonable to believe that even that permenent damage might in time lessen, never completely gone but they'd get better the longer they had lived after their charm.

Neville has lived for something like ten years, when we first meet him, after his charm and therefore it has weakened it effect until it seems borderline bad memory plain and simple but still questionable. Bertha on the other hand was apparently recieving memory charms periodically right up until she disappeared (because she couldn't keep her fat mouth shut ) so her memory never really has time to recooperate!

I hope that all made sense because I typed it kinda fast and don't have time to proof

[Athena Appleton]

Hmmm... it's funny to me that people's perception of Bertha Jorkins changed a lot over time...

In school, she was a doofus, but she certainly had no memory problems (according to Sirius).

According to people who kept in contact with her while the memory charms were being placed, eventually they came to believe that "Bertha Jorkins just has a bad memory," apparently forgetting themselves that Bertha Jorkins's memory wasn't always bad...

Anyway...

Take what pallas said and expound on it: we don't know what different effects there are for an adult who has a memory charm placed on them (Bertha Jorkins, the Muggles at the camp), a child who has a memory charm placed on them (the children of the Muggles at the camp), and an infant who has a memory charm placed on them... One whopper of a memory charm placed on a 1-year-old could have the same sort of lasting effects as, say, ten placed on an adult...

[pallas artemis]

One whopper of a memory charm placed on a 1-year-old could have the same sort of lasting effects as, say, ten placed on an adult...

At the same time we understand (meaning people in general, not in HP World terms) that a childs mind, though fragile, is very resilient(sp). It is quite possible that Neville, as an infant, could recooperate much quicker than an adult.

Neville's poor memory could also be an effect of his own mind trying to block things out, such as visits to his parents, and that effort to forget spills over into the rest of his life.

I'm not real confinced either way. Like I said before I think it is as likely as not that he had a memory charm but that also means that it is as likely as not that he didn't. I need more proof

[Nobby]

One whopper of a memory charm placed on a 1-year-old could have the same sort of lasting effects as, say, ten placed on an adult...

Thus making Neville's memory poor and effecting how well he does at school. Maybe the effects of the charm are wearing off!, and now we are getting to see the true Neville Longbottom (with powers that match or even suceed his parents)

[Alice I]

Alice, are you telling me that things don't go on in your house that Emmy and Ally are completely oblivious to after their bedtime? It's entirely possible that Neville was there, but since he was just a year old, even really major things can go over a kid's head completely...

Sorry I didn't answer your question directly before, I kind of missed it after reading all the posts.

There are many things that the kids are unaware of after bedtime but.....

In every description I have read throughout the books of the crutacious curse the receivers are screaming in agony. No child that I have ever met would sleep through that especially if the ones doing the screaming were the familiar voices of their parents.

I think it is possible that 15 month old Neville heard the torture of his parents and came down stairs. Completely traumatized by what was happening he did not start crying but watched in a state of shock.
I think it is possible that after the DE's left Gran came and found her son and daughter-in-law tortured into unconsciousness and her grandson sitting in a state of catatonic withdrawal.
I think it is possible that Gran put a memory charm on her grandson to try and get him to forget the torture and that could be an explanation for his poor memory.